AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

8 months ago

Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:41 am

Cassie

DeveloperLoves long talks on the beach

Cassie has been gardening for over 2 years.

Level54 Last INQFriday, February 14, 2020 Gardening For4 years, 6 months, 24 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes Next Level in6 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes on September 14th INQ 1yr onSunday, February 14, 2021 INQ 1yr reached3 years, 6 months, 24 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes ago INQ 2yr onMonday, February 14, 2022 INQ 2yr reached2 years, 6 months, 24 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes ago

BrutalBodyShots wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:29 am
Beefy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:04 pm The MyFICO app clearly states it Rowdy is usually pretty knowledgeable
Right, I agree. My question then is why do we (us credit people in general) always recommend that one of the attributes of an AU card being considered is that it's significantly aged? If it doesn't impact aging metrics as those images clearly state, have we just all wrongly believed that an AU account impacts aging metrics when all along they haven't?

I'm starting to think it's all about number of accounts and perhaps the number of on-time payments on those accounts. On-time payment history only goes back 24 months, of course, but that's still a lot on its own. There are at least reason codes for a lot of the characteristics an added account would positively affect. There could be a thin/thick scorecard change as well, after which there would be diminishing returns. Maybe even negative affects with too many AUs, triggering the 'too few or too many cards' code?

7 months ago

Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:17 am

Dinosaur

Seasoned RebelDinosaur

Level4 Last INQMonday, April 8, 2024 Gardening For4 months, 30 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes Next Level in3 hours and 15 minutes on September 8th INQ 1yr onTuesday, April 8, 2025 INQ 1yr in7 months, 3 hours, and 15 minutes INQ 2yr onWednesday, April 8, 2026 INQ 2yr in1 year, 7 months, 3 hours, and 15 minutes Goal24 months Goal DateWednesday, April 8, 2026 Goal In1 year, 7 months, 3 hours, and 15 minutes

BrutalBodyShots wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:37 am Thank you for taking the time to reply and offer some perspective on this topic, @Slabenstein ! Everyone else that has replied so far, @Cassie , @Beefy and @Saeren, what do you think about @Slabenstein's take on that image that states AU aging metrics are not included?

There has been some interesting concepts and conjecture here. You keep driving yourself crazy (at least we will know where you are) while we head for the Pub and some tall cool one's

7 months ago

Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:46 pm

Beefy

Seasoned Rebel

Level3 Last INQTuesday, May 28, 2024 Gardening For3 months, 10 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes Next Level in20 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes on September 28th INQ 1yr onWednesday, May 28, 2025 INQ 1yr in8 months, 20 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes INQ 2yr onThursday, May 28, 2026 INQ 2yr in1 year, 8 months, 20 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes Goal12 months Goal DateWednesday, May 28, 2025 Goal In8 months, 20 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes

BrutalBodyShots wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:37 am Thank you for taking the time to reply and offer some perspective on this topic, @Slabenstein ! Everyone else that has replied so far, @Cassie , @Beefy and @Saeren, what do you think about @Slabenstein's take on that image that states AU aging metrics are not included?

I think while a compelling argument Slab is wrong. Whether that blurb is there or not, one could still easily do pen testing to see what goes through and what doesn’t. My other issue with it is, that it is a definitive statement. “Are not”. Typically the CRAs or MyFICO couch everything they say in a slew of non-definitive phrases “could, may, tend, might” even when they imply for example closing your oldest account is bad they neglect to mention that effect is not realized for a decade for them to outright lie about the effect of AU accounts would be fraud. So that means AU accounts minus the abuse algorithm filtered accounts have an effect, and that they are wholly separate even if identical to the metrics we are used to seeing. Or maybe an intern screwed up and no one has caught it yet.

7 months ago

Sat Jan 27, 2024 6:57 pm

Dinosaur

Seasoned RebelDinosaur

Level4 Last INQMonday, April 8, 2024 Gardening For4 months, 30 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes Next Level in3 hours and 15 minutes on September 8th INQ 1yr onTuesday, April 8, 2025 INQ 1yr in7 months, 3 hours, and 15 minutes INQ 2yr onWednesday, April 8, 2026 INQ 2yr in1 year, 7 months, 3 hours, and 15 minutes Goal24 months Goal DateWednesday, April 8, 2026 Goal In1 year, 7 months, 3 hours, and 15 minutes

BrutalBodyShots wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:37 am Thank you for taking the time to reply and offer some perspective on this topic, @Slabenstein ! Everyone else that has replied so far, @Cassie , @Beefy and @Saeren, what do you think about @Slabenstein's take on that image that states AU aging metrics are not included?

A shot in the dark ... is there any opportunity for the financial that issued the AU Card to "code" it in their credit reporting that might affect the AU Card scoring effect?

7 months ago

Mon Jan 29, 2024 10:30 am

Slabenstein

OutlierDinosaurs are patriots

Slabenstein has passed the 24 month threshold and is completely inquiry free!
Slabenstein has achieved the Garden Goal !!

Level24 Last INQThursday, September 1, 2022 Gardening For2 years, 6 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes Next Level in23 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes on October 1st INQ 1yr onFriday, September 1, 2023 INQ 1yr reached1 year, 6 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes ago INQ 2yr onSunday, September 1, 2024 INQ 2yr reached6 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes ago Goal24 months Goal DateSunday, September 1, 2024 Goal Achieved6 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes ago

Dinosaur wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2024 6:57 pm
BrutalBodyShots wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:37 am Thank you for taking the time to reply and offer some perspective on this topic, @Slabenstein ! Everyone else that has replied so far, @Cassie , @Beefy and @Saeren, what do you think about @Slabenstein's take on that image that states AU aging metrics are not included?
A shot in the dark ... is there any opportunity for the financial that issued the AU Card to "code" it in their credit reporting that might affect the AU Card scoring effect?

The only thing an FI can report that has to do with being AU is the ECOA responsibility code, one of the options for which is authorized user.

7 months ago

Mon Jan 29, 2024 5:02 pm

Kill1nTime

Visitor

There must be some metric in an AU account that affects this.

I can run simulators for mortgage loans, using FICO Ver 2 and have been accurate with every observed result (sim vs actual).

If I build a new profile using this.. Adding an AU cc account 2000 limit, 100 balance.. and play with just the date the account initially opened from the actual cardholder, I get :

1 month - no score
1 year - 737 score
2 years - 761 score
3 years - 765 score

VS3 does show AAoA using AU accounts .. I put my kid on my 25 yr old Cap One card and this was his AAoA as well. He was also able to get a brand new car through Honda Finc . $26k w/ $4k down with this as his only piece of credit. Unsure of what that score was.. but assume some type of automated process through Honda approved this.

I have been able to get home loans based on someone having one AU card with a great score as their only piece of credit. Granted, the AUS (Automated Underwriting System) from either Freddie or Fannie must show the account(s) are accepted as-is and dont require anything further. If credit would need to be verified, it would kick it into needed 2 lines for 12 months on bureau , and AU accounts need verified paid by the AU for 12 months .

I dont know the answer to your question, but there is definitely something there. I noticed that systems that heavily rely on some type of automated descision , will approve someone with this scenario. It pisses me off being in the loan world that a young kid with no history can get a better rate based on an inflated AU score than someone with a lower score but much, much less risk.

7 months ago

Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:40 pm

Beefy

Seasoned Rebel

Level3 Last INQTuesday, May 28, 2024 Gardening For3 months, 10 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes Next Level in20 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes on September 28th INQ 1yr onWednesday, May 28, 2025 INQ 1yr in8 months, 20 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes INQ 2yr onThursday, May 28, 2026 INQ 2yr in1 year, 8 months, 20 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes Goal12 months Goal DateWednesday, May 28, 2025 Goal In8 months, 20 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes

@BrutalBodyShots @Cassie @Slabenstein So we actually had a visitor on here post a message contradicting the tool tip on myFICO. Single AU account list on EX with aging metric mirroring it exactly… viewtopic.php?t=1455

So CMS fluff or is fico flat out wrong?

7 months ago

Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:10 pm

Cassie

DeveloperLoves long talks on the beach

Cassie has been gardening for over 2 years.

Level54 Last INQFriday, February 14, 2020 Gardening For4 years, 6 months, 24 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes Next Level in6 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes on September 14th INQ 1yr onSunday, February 14, 2021 INQ 1yr reached3 years, 6 months, 24 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes ago INQ 2yr onMonday, February 14, 2022 INQ 2yr reached2 years, 6 months, 24 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes ago

Beefy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 8:40 pm [Quoted post had an image here.] So CMS fluff or is fico flat out wrong?

I think it's just the CMS calculating the aging metrics based on opening date alone. Obviously, some AU bankcard account characteristics are weighted differently than regular bankcard accounts. My friend has a 790 EX8/TU8 (both the same) score at 2y6m with a single, regular BofA bankcard on her clean file.

7 months ago

Mon Jan 29, 2024 9:13 pm

Cassie

DeveloperLoves long talks on the beach

Cassie has been gardening for over 2 years.

Level54 Last INQFriday, February 14, 2020 Gardening For4 years, 6 months, 24 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes Next Level in6 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes on September 14th INQ 1yr onSunday, February 14, 2021 INQ 1yr reached3 years, 6 months, 24 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes ago INQ 2yr onMonday, February 14, 2022 INQ 2yr reached2 years, 6 months, 24 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes ago

Kill1nTime wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 5:02 pm There must be some metric in an AU account that affects this. I can run simulators for mortgage loans, using FICO Ver 2 and have been accurate with every observed result (sim vs actual).

Welcome, @Kill1nTime , and thank you for the data points!

7 months ago

Tue Jan 30, 2024 12:12 pm

Justaguy

Seasoned Rebel

Justaguy has been gardening for over 2 years.

Level33 Last INQTuesday, November 16, 2021 Gardening For2 years, 9 months, 22 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes Next Level in8 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes on September 16th INQ 1yr onWednesday, November 16, 2022 INQ 1yr reached1 year, 9 months, 22 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes ago INQ 2yr onThursday, November 16, 2023 INQ 2yr reached9 months, 22 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes ago

Post was altered.

Last edited by Justaguy on Wed Jan 31, 2024 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I’m a little late to the party, but I appreciate BBS’s invitation.

I did a small bit of testing with AUs a year or two ago and in the course of that I noticed the declarations that motivated this thread. It’s puzzling. I think the Reddit person (Rowdy?) may be right about the proxy bit. That’s consistent with what I see on the AU AZ penalty. What I mean is that AU accounts seem to exist in parallel to regular accounts, giving a second opportunity to gain and lose points in whatever bit of code does the AZ penalty (and maybe some others, like thin/thick segmentation) but without triggering negative reason codes.

I’m inclined to accept as true the myFICO statements that AUs don’t contribute to AAoA or AoOA, with one caveat: perhaps they are only talking about newer scoring models. Maybe older models did allow AU accounts to affect aging metrics and that’s how the conventional wisdom about them developed.

I’m not able to do any testing now, but maybe I’ll get back into that in the future.

(Edit: Fixed typo. “taking about” -> “talking about”)

7 months ago

Wed Jan 31, 2024 1:09 am

EvenBetterThanTheRealThing

Seasoned Rebel

Level4 Last INQFriday, April 12, 2024 Gardening For4 months, 26 days, 20 hours, and 45 minutes Next Level in4 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes on September 12th INQ 1yr onSaturday, April 12, 2025 INQ 1yr in7 months, 4 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes INQ 2yr onSunday, April 12, 2026 INQ 2yr in1 year, 7 months, 4 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes Goal12 months Goal DateSaturday, April 12, 2025 Goal In7 months, 4 days, 3 hours, and 15 minutes

I have nothing to add to this conversation as I've never been an AU but take a lot of interest in the details of scoring and following this thread closely. Makes me want to see my sister's scores as she's got nothing but student loans and is an AU on my dad's OG Freedom. No cards of her own on her report for now.