I was discussing this with someone on Reddit that I believe understands Fico scoring well, and I'm lead to believe that my understanding of the benefit of AU accounts may be incorrect. I always believed that one of the main benefits of an AU account for a new/thin file and one of the main reasons they are recommended/used was because of their positive impact on aging metrics... be it AoOA or AAoA. After all, one of the main points you hear when someone is considering the addition of an AU account is that it should be significantly aged for maximum benefit (aside from being clean, low utilization, etc). The Fico images I saw however clearly state that AU accounts do not impact aging metrics, either AAoA or AoOA. So, if aging metrics aren't impacted by AU accounts, why are they always recommended and with the suggestion to make sure they're aged? If it's not the aging metric benefit, what is the benefit of AU accounts outside of simply being file-thickening and utilization padding? They don't aid "Credit Mix" and near as I can tell they don't hold their own portion of the Amounts Owed slice of the Fico pie, as I haven't seen any "lack of AU account" negative reason codes the way you'd see one for either revolvers or installment loans. Anyone have further insight on this? I feel like I've been living under a rock and that my understanding of AU accounts has been wrong for a very long time if they don't impact aging metrics. What do you all think, Cassie , Saeren , Justaguy , Beefy ,etc? I'll post a cut and paste from the rest of the theory that the Reddit user I was speaking to had in the next post below:
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AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

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Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:21 pm
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I was discussing this with someone on Reddit that I believe understands Fico scoring well, and I'm lead to believe that my understanding of the benefit of AU accounts may be incorrect. I always believed that one of the main benefits of an AU account for a new/thin file and one of the main reasons they are recommended/used was because of their positive impact on aging metrics... be it AoOA or AAoA. After all, one of the main points you hear when someone is considering the addition of an AU account is that it should be significantly aged for maximum benefit (aside from being clean, low utilization, etc). The Fico images I saw however clearly state that AU accounts do not impact aging metrics, either AAoA or AoOA. So, if aging metrics aren't impacted by AU accounts, why are they always recommended and with the suggestion to make sure they're aged? If it's not the aging metric benefit, what is the benefit of AU accounts outside of simply being file-thickening and utilization padding? They don't aid "Credit Mix" and near as I can tell they don't hold their own portion of the Amounts Owed slice of the Fico pie, as I haven't seen any "lack of AU account" negative reason codes the way you'd see one for either revolvers or installment loans. Anyone have further insight on this? I feel like I've been living under a rock and that my understanding of AU accounts has been wrong for a very long time if they don't impact aging metrics. What do you all think, @Cassie , @Saeren , @Justaguy , @Beefy ,etc? I'll post a cut and paste from the rest of the theory that the Reddit user I was speaking to had in the next post below:
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

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Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:49 pm
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"I do have a rough theory how about AU points are awarded, but it’s so different from the fico algorithms that you and u/beefy1357 and I and others are familiar with that it’s controversial, to say the least. Here are the broad strokes as I understand them:

There are no negative reason statements associated with not having an AU card. Points awarded for AU cards exist outside of the well-known scoring metrics and are strictly awarded as a bonus. I don’t believe this is controversial, but the rest of my working theory becomes progressively more so.

I believe there is a sliding scale for the size of an AU card award based on the individual’s current scores. As an example, someone with fico 8s in the low 700s will see more than twice the bonus points for an AU card as someone with fico 8s in the low 800s will. I have quite a bit of data on this, because of the way the Authorized User All Zero penalty is calculated. It is very easy to determine the size of an AU bonus if you know the size of the AU AZ penalty, which can be determined at will.

I further believe there is a sliding scale for the size of an AU card award based on the qualities of the card (age, payment history, credit limit). I don’t have any concrete knowledge about how this scale operates, but I have noticed this: despite the fact that AU cards don’t contribute to aging metrics but do contribute to UT, both age and credit limit are essentially equal in determining the size of an AU card award. Optimizing both is best for the largest award, but there is a limit. I’ve personally witnessed that a 29 year old card with a $54,000 limit does not give a larger bonus than an 20 year old card with a $41,000 limit. Even a 15 year old card with only a $18,000 limit essentially maxes out the fico scoring bonus and is enough to give someone with no other credit history an EX fico 8 above 740.

I only have the most basic understanding of how a single AU card can give someone with no other credit history a fico 8 of ~750 and how 2 AU cards can result in ~780. I’ve witnessed this phenomenon myself, and I’ve read countless posts about it happening. My working theory (if you can even call it that) is that the AU card acts as a proxy revolving account; the presence of a revolving AU credit card satisfies the open revolver requirement. This seems to differ from all of the other data I’ve observed about AU cards - it’s somehow related to the classic fico scoring algorithms that we’re all familiar with. This is also the reason why I believe 3 AU cards (and nothing else) is worth even more points, but 3 AU cards when you have other open revolving accounts doesn’t result in additional points.

There are other peculiarities about AU cards that I’ve picked up over the years, but they’ll only confuse my answer even further, so I’ll leave them for another time."
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

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Wed Jan 24, 2024 4:26 am
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Last edited by Dinosaur on Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
BrutalBodyShots wrote: Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:49 pm "I do have a rough theory how about AU points are awarded, but it’s so different from the fico algorithms that you and u/beefy1357 and I and others are familiar with that it’s controversial, to say the least. Here are the broad strokes as I understand them: There are no negative reason statements associated with not having an AU card. Points awarded for AU cards exist outside of the well-known scoring metrics and are strictly awarded as a bonus. I don’t believe this is controversial, but the rest of my working theory becomes progressively more so. I believe there is a sliding scale for the size of an AU card award based on the individual’s current scores. As an example, someone with fico 8s in the low 700s will see more than twice the bonus points for an AU card as someone with fico 8s in the low 800s will. I have quite a bit of data on this, because of the way the Authorized User All Zero penalty is calculated. It is very easy to determine the size of an AU bonus if you know the size of the AU AZ penalty, which can be determined at will. I further believe there is a sliding scale for the size of an AU card award based on the qualities of the card (age, payment history, credit limit). I don’t have any concrete knowledge about how this scale operates, but I have noticed this: despite the fact that AU cards don’t contribute to aging metrics but do contribute to UT, both age and credit limit are essentially equal in determining the size of an AU card award. Optimizing both is best for the largest award, but there is a limit. I’ve personally witnessed that a 29 year old card with a $54,000 limit does not give a larger bonus than an 20 year old card with a $41,000 limit. Even a 15 year old card with only a $18,000 limit essentially maxes out the fico scoring bonus and is enough to give someone with no other credit history an EX fico 8 above 740. I only have the most basic understanding of how a single AU card can give someone with no other credit history a fico 8 of ~750 and how 2 AU cards can result in ~780. I’ve witnessed this phenomenon myself, and I’ve read countless posts about it happening. My working theory (if you can even call it that) is that the AU card acts as a proxy revolving account; the presence of a revolving AU credit card satisfies the open revolver requirement. This seems to differ from all of the other data I’ve observed about AU cards - it’s somehow related to the classic fico scoring algorithms that we’re all familiar with. This is also the reason why I believe 3 AU cards (and nothing else) is worth even more points, but 3 AU cards when you have other open revolving accounts doesn’t result in additional points. There are other peculiarities about AU cards that I’ve picked up over the years, but they’ll only confuse my answer even further, so I’ll leave them for another time."
Interesting! Now we know that financials use many sources for their own proprietary scoring system and ratings. How can one be specific on this with the use of proprietary metrics? As I think on this, for a fact one major bank has underwriting standards for various products and if the individual is a customer, they also bring in a "customer relations score" as an added metrics. Their goal is supposedly to give the customer extra credit so to say (know this for a fact from one of the bank's evaluators) and could affect an AU relationship?
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

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I question this greatly. Maybe it depends on the FICO score but when I added my roommates to one of my cards, they both got a huge boost in score (as neither had a card). When I added them both to my oldest card later, which was 5 at the time, they both got a boost to their AAoA. This was FICO 8 on Experian since they could pull that free.
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

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Wed Jan 24, 2024 11:44 pm
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Saeren wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:06 pm When I added them both to my oldest card later, which was 5 at the time, they both got a boost to their AAoA.
I just wonder now if that AU AAoA boost is merely a CMS calculation/display in some instances. It may not matter to the FICO algorithm, based on some internal 'AU flag'. Proving that would be very difficult, however: we would have to observe an AAoA threshold being crossed twice. My friend is now at 2y6m AAoA with a 790 EX FICO 8, with a single, unsecured, bankcard with a lowly $1500 limit. How much more is she really going to gain with the addition of a 5 year old AU revolving count? (She would cross the 3y0m mature line, but with only 2 cards, it doesn't affect EX8 like it does with TU8, as I found out when I lost nothing and instead gained +2 points.)
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

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Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:23 am
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Saeren wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:06 pm I question this greatly. Maybe it depends on the FICO score but when I added my roommates to one of my cards, they both got a huge boost in score (as neither had a card). When I added them both to my oldest card later, which was 5 at the time, they both got a boost to their AAoA. This was FICO 8 on Experian since they could pull that free.
So what do you think about the Fico statement that AU accounts do not impact AAoA or AoOA? I always thought they did, but it's hard to argue with images that clearly say they don't.
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

7 of 27
8 months ago
Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:47 am
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BrutalBodyShots wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:23 am
Saeren wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:06 pm I question this greatly. Maybe it depends on the FICO score but when I added my roommates to one of my cards, they both got a huge boost in score (as neither had a card). When I added them both to my oldest card later, which was 5 at the time, they both got a boost to their AAoA. This was FICO 8 on Experian since they could pull that free.
So what do you think about the Fico statement that AU accounts do not impact AAoA or AoOA? I always thought they did, but it's hard to argue with images that clearly say they don't.
I read it with my own eyes, but frankly still don’t believe it. For one even Rowdy implies AU age has an effect on bonus points it may not be strictly part of the fico metric, maybe it is something the CRA are doing on their end like Experian boost but clearly something is happening there.
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

8 of 27
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Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:03 pm
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Beefy wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:47 am
BrutalBodyShots wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:23 am
Saeren wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:06 pm I question this greatly. Maybe it depends on the FICO score but when I added my roommates to one of my cards, they both got a huge boost in score (as neither had a card). When I added them both to my oldest card later, which was 5 at the time, they both got a boost to their AAoA. This was FICO 8 on Experian since they could pull that free.
So what do you think about the Fico statement that AU accounts do not impact AAoA or AoOA? I always thought they did, but it's hard to argue with images that clearly say they don't.
I read it with my own eyes, but frankly still don’t believe it. For one even Rowdy implies AU age has an effect on bonus points it may not be strictly part of the fico metric, maybe it is something the CRA are doing on their end like Experian boost but clearly something is happening there.
Assuming I am digesting this correctly? Would assume Vantage or Fico credit metrics would be exclusive of rewards programs. No proof but, as often as the rewards programs change (as often as I change clothes) it would seem like a giant task to adjust for rewards program changes. I look at some banks and they seem to have problems getting their regular web site to work?! :very-mad:
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

9 of 27
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Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:53 pm
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Cassie wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 11:44 pm
Saeren wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:06 pm When I added them both to my oldest card later, which was 5 at the time, they both got a boost to their AAoA.
I just wonder now if that AU AAoA boost is merely a CMS calculation/display in some instances. It may not matter to the FICO algorithm, based on some internal 'AU flag'. Proving that would be very difficult, however: we would have to observe an AAoA threshold being crossed twice. My friend is now at 2y6m AAoA with a 790 EX FICO 8, with a single, unsecured, bankcard with a lowly $1500 limit. How much more is she really going to gain with the addition of a 5 year old AU revolving count? (She would cross the 3y0m mature line, but with only 2 cards, it doesn't affect EX8 like it does with TU8, as I found out when I lost nothing and instead gained +2 points.)
Seeing how neither of them had *any* positive credit until I added them as an AU on the one card, then both got another score boost when I added them to the second card, I am pretty sure that the AAoA and AoOA gains were involved but as I didn't track their scores the whole time I can't be 100% sure.
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

10 of 27
8 months ago
Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:54 pm
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Saeren
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BrutalBodyShots wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:23 am
Saeren wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:06 pm I question this greatly. Maybe it depends on the FICO score but when I added my roommates to one of my cards, they both got a huge boost in score (as neither had a card). When I added them both to my oldest card later, which was 5 at the time, they both got a boost to their AAoA. This was FICO 8 on Experian since they could pull that free.
So what do you think about the Fico statement that AU accounts do not impact AAoA or AoOA? I always thought they did, but it's hard to argue with images that clearly say they don't.
Maybe the images are wrong? I don't know, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence out there that AUs *DO* make a huge difference in scores and it would be hard to believe that the age isn't being taken into account with how high some of the scores can go.
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

11 of 27
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Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:56 pm
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I'm pretty skeptical of this. I'll put some comments below.
"I do have a rough theory how about AU points are awarded, but it’s so different from the fico algorithms that you and u/beefy1357 and I and others are familiar with that it’s controversial, to say the least. Here are the broad strokes as I understand them: There are no negative reason statements associated with not having an AU card. Points awarded for AU cards exist outside of the well-known scoring metrics and are strictly awarded as a bonus. I don’t believe this is controversial, but the rest of my working theory becomes progressively more so.
No negative reason statements for not having an AU doesn't imply that there are bonus points for having one. From what I've seen, an AU card, if not discounted by anti-abuse algo's, only adds what that card would add to a profile if it were a card under that consumer's responsibility. As an example: When I added my wife to my aged Disco, she had no open revolving or any revolving history, her score jumped significantly. When she added me to her a-few-months-old Disco, I had a thick and aged profile w/ about 15 years of revolving history, and my scores didn't do anything. This is just what you'd expect to happen if those cards were our own. The only unique scoring I've seen demonstrated for FICO8 that has to do with AU is the AU AZ penalty.
I believe there is a sliding scale for the size of an AU card award based on the individual’s current scores. As an example, someone with fico 8s in the low 700s will see more than twice the bonus points for an AU card as someone with fico 8s in the low 800s will. I have quite a bit of data on this, because of the way the Authorized User All Zero penalty is calculated. It is very easy to determine the size of an AU bonus if you know the size of the AU AZ penalty, which can be determined at will.
From this, I can't see that the poster has isolated the effects of their hypothetical sliding AU bonus from the different effects of adding an aged revolver to different profiles. Many profile in the low 700's would have more to gain from adding an aged, low util, etc card than profiles in the low 800's, regardless of reported responsibility. If I understand the last line of this paragraph correctly (I'm not sure I do), I think the poster is saying that the hypothetical AU bonus is the same as the AU AZ penalty, and that you determine the one from the other by their being equal. I don't see a reason to think that's the case (the effective bonuses for 1st-3rd bankcards are not the same as the AZ penalty, for example), and I see a good reason to think it's not the case: If you add an AU card to a profile that receives a sizeable bump from it, and then report AU AZ the next month, you likely won't see a drop equal to the previous gain. (This makes me think I'm not understanding this poster, but I'm not sure what else their claim that AU bonus can be determined from AU AZ penalty could mean, since they seem to think their reader would know what that method of determination was without their giving a means of calculating it.)
I further believe there is a sliding scale for the size of an AU card award based on the qualities of the card (age, payment history, credit limit). I don’t have any concrete knowledge about how this scale operates, but I have noticed this: despite the fact that AU cards don’t contribute to aging metrics but do contribute to UT, both age and credit limit are essentially equal in determining the size of an AU card award. Optimizing both is best for the largest award, but there is a limit. I’ve personally witnessed that a 29 year old card with a $54,000 limit does not give a larger bonus than an 20 year old card with a $41,000 limit. Even a 15 year old card with only a $18,000 limit essentially maxes out the fico scoring bonus and is enough to give someone with no other credit history an EX fico 8 above 740.
Again, where this poster sees a "sliding scale", they could just be seeing the different effects a tradeline can have on different profiles. I also don't think that a hypothetical, complicated sliding AU bonus that both does and doesn't score from AU account age is the most parsimonious explanation for different cards having different effects on different profiles, since the difference in profile may be enough (though more info about each profile would be needed to say). Info in the last two sentences of this paragraph is incomplete (e.g. limits are not scored in themselves, only util), but I think the poster is saying that they have seen a cap on how high an AU card will push up the score of a thin or otherwise empty profile. If there is, it could be the case that there is a cap on AU contribs specifically (e.g. all AU 15yr+ score as 15 yrs for aging), or the poster could just be seeing scoring limits for thin profiles that would be the same whether or not the cards in questions were AU (again, more info about the profiles and the testing the poster performed is needed to evaluate their claim). Neither requires a separate AU scoring metric that uses different logic from the rest of the FICO8 algorithm.
I only have the most basic understanding of how a single AU card can give someone with no other credit history a fico 8 of ~750 and how 2 AU cards can result in ~780. I’ve witnessed this phenomenon myself, and I’ve read countless posts about it happening. My working theory (if you can even call it that) is that the AU card acts as a proxy revolving account; the presence of a revolving AU credit card satisfies the open revolver requirement. This seems to differ from all of the other data I’ve observed about AU cards - it’s somehow related to the classic fico scoring algorithms that we’re all familiar with. This is also the reason why I believe 3 AU cards (and nothing else) is worth even more points, but 3 AU cards when you have other open revolving accounts doesn’t result in additional points.
Again, I don't see a case for why this behavior is different from the difference in score gain you would see from having, e.g., 3 vs 6 open revolvers on different profiles. Not enough information is provided to know if they're properly controlling for AU anti-abuse exclusion or independent changes in scored metrics.
There are other peculiarities about AU cards that I’ve picked up over the years, but they’ll only confuse my answer even further, so I’ll leave them for another time."
Hopefully this poster will provide more detailed information about their methods and DPs so the FICO-pondering community can better determine the merits of their view.
Slabenstein
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

12 of 27
8 months ago
Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:04 pm
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Beefy
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Saeren wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:54 pm
BrutalBodyShots wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:23 am
Saeren wrote: Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:06 pm I question this greatly. Maybe it depends on the FICO score but when I added my roommates to one of my cards, they both got a huge boost in score (as neither had a card). When I added them both to my oldest card later, which was 5 at the time, they both got a boost to their AAoA. This was FICO 8 on Experian since they could pull that free.
So what do you think about the Fico statement that AU accounts do not impact AAoA or AoOA? I always thought they did, but it's hard to argue with images that clearly say they don't.
Maybe the images are wrong? I don't know, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence out there that AUs *DO* make a huge difference in scores and it would be hard to believe that the age isn't being taken into account with how high some of the scores can go.
Image Image The MyFICO app clearly states it Rowdy is usually pretty knowledgeable
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

13 of 27
8 months ago
Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:19 pm
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Cassie
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Saeren wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:53 pm Seeing how neither of them had *any* positive credit until I added them as an AU on the one card, then both got another score boost when I added them to the second card, I am pretty sure that the AAoA and AoOA gains were involved but as I didn't track their scores the whole time I can't be 100% sure.
That could be mostly due to number and type of accounts. Zero to One would be a big jump. A revolving account is definitely worth a lot more than a loan, as I found out when I started my credit file with an SSL. I don't remember FICO telling us clearly (see @Beefy 's screencap) that AU accounts aren't a factor in the 2 primary aging attributes. But there it is.
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

14 of 27
8 months ago
Fri Jan 26, 2024 12:37 am
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Slabenstein
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I don't have a MyFICO subscription, but my wife has a free account, so I went and looked at that to see why people are saying that FICO has said AU's aren't included in this or that metric. It looks like these screenshots are coming from Insights, which looks like a front-end CMS fluff part of the website. It tells you you have "Good", "Very Good", etc, amount of debt, number of new accounts, whatever, so I'm not inclined to take them very seriously. That same part of the website tells you that, e.g., payment history has a 35% impact on credit scores, which we know isn't strictly true.

I take all the "AU's are not included" disclaimers to mean that when, e.g., MyFICO Insights says you have 4 accounts with late payments, it only means accounts under your responsibility. I don't take that to mean that a late payment on an AU account wouldn't be scored by the FICO8 algorithm.

The "AU's are not included" disclaimer is on every attribute involving tradelines that MyFICO Insights shows, which would imply that they don't affect anything at all. I assume that's why the Reddit poster BBS quoted in the second post saw a need to come up with a complicated way that AU tradeline attributes could have scoring impact while also not being included in FICO metrics. But I think the more reasonable and parsimonious conclusion to be drawn from the obvious effects that AU accounts do have on some profiles is that they are scored as a part of the usual FICO metrics (when the anti-abuse algo doesn't discount them), and that the "AU's are not included" disclaimer is referring only to the displayed values on the CMS front end.

I can think of two likely reasons that MyFICO wouldn't include them there, both having to do with the anti-abuse algo. The first is that, because of that algo, some AU tradelines are included in scoring and some aren't. Assuming that the MyFICO Insights pull their values directly from the credit report rather than from the FICO8 algo (which I think is pretty likely, given the kind of proprietary information that the algo is), then excluding all AU accounts from the Insights values means that Insights doesn't have to know whether any particular AU account is or isn't excluded by anti-abuse.

The second is that, if MyFICO Insights did know what AU accounts were and weren't included, it would still be in FICO's interest not to show that, since then it would be a tool that would help consumers work out exactly how the anti-abuse algo functions, which would let us start gaming it and more effectively use non-organic AU for artificial score gain--something the anti-abuse algo was created to prevent in the first place.
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

15 of 27
8 months ago
Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:29 am
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BrutalBodyShots
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Beefy wrote: Thu Jan 25, 2024 6:04 pm The MyFICO app clearly states it Rowdy is usually pretty knowledgeable
Right, I agree. My question then is why do we (us credit people in general) always recommend that one of the attributes of an AU card being considered is that it's significantly aged? If it doesn't impact aging metrics as those images clearly state, have we just all wrongly believed that an AU account impacts aging metrics when all along they haven't?
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Re: AU accounts do not impact aging metrics?

16 of 27
8 months ago
Fri Jan 26, 2024 1:37 am
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BrutalBodyShots
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Thank you for taking the time to reply and offer some perspective on this topic, @Slabenstein ! Everyone else that has replied so far, @Cassie , @Beefy and @Saeren, what do you think about @Slabenstein's take on that image that states AU aging metrics are not included?
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