Phoenix financial services

So I have a friend who had multiple collections with these people. They asked for my help. They were trying to get her to pay 65% and I negotiated it down to 30% PFD.

I made a contact there as well. Waiting for the removal.

Were these medical collections, by any chance?

@Taurus22 Right you are my friend. Nice signature too.

Medical collections are a fickle thing.....there's this thing called HIPPA laws that makes it almost impossible for collection agencies to provide enough information and original documentation to Validate a collection claim. Often, you can get them to completely abandon the claim and stop reporting altogether. Can we add documents here? I'd like to show you something....

I just decided to copy the text. This is an actual debt validation letter I sent to Phoenix Financial back in 2019 on my girlfriend's behalf. Due to HIPPA laws, they were unable to provide any documents to support their right to subrogation. They withdrew their collection claim and stopped reporting. The collection dropped off of her credit reports a month later. Removing medical collections is one area I shine. Phoenix Financial Services LLC March 19, 2019 Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC 8902 Otis Ave, Ste 103A Indianapolis, IN 46216-1077 FORMAL REQUEST FOR DEBT VALIDATION Name: Original Creditor: Upstate SC Emergency Physician Amount due: Account #: To Whom It May Concern I am requesting that Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC provide Debt Validation for Acct.# 00000000. Under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA) I have the right to request validation of the debt you are reporting I owe to you. I am requesting proof that I am indeed the party you ask to pay the debt, including documentation which shall include: the name of the patient, an original bill, a detailed statement of procedures, full accounting for the amount allegedly owed, the dates of the alleged services, and a copy of documentation that shows that there is some contractual obligation with my signature that is binding me to pay this alleged debt. Hereby understand that this alleged debt is disputed. As it is common business practice for creditors to write off alleged debts and to, thereupon, receive either an insurance settlement or a tax credit compensation, in such cases, the pursuit of any such debt thus paid off is illegal unless the entity pursuing same debt has right of subrogation of the alleged debt. Please submit proof that Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC has been given the right to subrogation through the original contract to collect on the alleged debt from the original creditor in accordance with American Jurisprudence, 73 Am Jur 2d. Sections 90-93. Otherwise, it shall constitute a “failure of consideration” and thus, no enforceable agreement as Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC has knowingly and willingly incurred a liability to its own detriment. (Scienti et volenti non fit injuria) Debt Validation with all requested documentation should be received no later than 30 days from receipt of this request. Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC shall cease any credit bureau reporting until the debt has been validated. If Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC can not provide adequate validation within the 30-day time frame, all debts should be considered invalid and any adverse reporting should be immediately removed from all three major credit bureaus and furthermore cease any additional reporting. These rights are provided to me by the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Please understand that withholding any information provided by the original creditor in this request for validation is in direct violation of my rights under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA). Furthermore, if Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC can not provide all requested documentation, since the alleged debt is beyond the statute of limitations, there shall be no further attempts to contact me in regards to this alleged debt. Best regards, Me 111 Validation Rd Anywhere USA 12345

Taurus22 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:24 pm I just decided to copy the text. This is an actual debt validation letter I sent to Phoenix Financial back in 2019 on my girlfriend's behalf. Due to HIPPA laws, they were unable to provide any documents to support their right to subrogation. They withdrew their collection claim and stopped reporting. The collection dropped off of her credit reports a month later. Removing medical collections is one area I shine. Phoenix Financial Services LLC March 19, 2019 Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC 8902 Otis Ave, Ste 103A Indianapolis, IN 46216-1077 FORMAL REQUEST FOR DEBT VALIDATION Name: Original Creditor: Upstate SC Emergency Physician Amount due: Account #: To Whom It May Concern I am requesting that Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC provide Debt Validation for Acct.# 00000000. Under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA) I have the right to request validation of the debt you are reporting I owe to you. I am requesting proof that I am indeed the party you ask to pay the debt, including documentation which shall include: the name of the patient, an original bill, a detailed statement of procedures, full accounting for the amount allegedly owed, the dates of the alleged services, and a copy of documentation that shows that there is some contractual obligation with my signature that is binding me to pay this alleged debt. Hereby understand that this alleged debt is disputed. As it is common business practice for creditors to write off alleged debts and to, thereupon, receive either an insurance settlement or a tax credit compensation, in such cases, the pursuit of any such debt thus paid off is illegal unless the entity pursuing same debt has right of subrogation of the alleged debt. Please submit proof that Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC has been given the right to subrogation through the original contract to collect on the alleged debt from the original creditor in accordance with American Jurisprudence, 73 Am Jur 2d. Sections 90-93. Otherwise, it shall constitute a “failure of consideration” and thus, no enforceable agreement as Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC has knowingly and willingly incurred a liability to its own detriment. (Scienti et volenti non fit injuria) Debt Validation with all requested documentation should be received no later than 30 days from receipt of this request. Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC shall cease any credit bureau reporting until the debt has been validated. If Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC can not provide adequate validation within the 30-day time frame, all debts should be considered invalid and any adverse reporting should be immediately removed from all three major credit bureaus and furthermore cease any additional reporting. These rights are provided to me by the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Please understand that withholding any information provided by the original creditor in this request for validation is in direct violation of my rights under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA). Furthermore, if Phoenix Financial Services LLC Registered as Indiana Resolution Group LLC can not provide all requested documentation, since the alleged debt is beyond the statute of limitations, there shall be no further attempts to contact me in regards to this alleged debt. Best regards, Me 111 Validation Rd Anywhere USA 12345

@Taurus22 absolutely beautiful! However this can only serve a purpose IF the consumer files it within the period of time they have to exercise their DV rights. Typically a Dunning Notice is served with the initial communication. A consumer that has 30 days to make the request. If they do not do so within 30 days, they no longer have the right. Sure you can request it, but there’s no corresponding duty/obligation on the part of the CA. Sometimes the bluff works anyway though. One point, you’re making two arguments actually. First you are requesting DV on the original debt. Secondly you are requesting proof of subrogation, that they have the authority to collect. Well they may not have been subrogated. They may have been assigned and be collecting on behalf of the OC, or they may have purchased it and therefore been subrogated to the position of the OC. We can talk about this here and please share your wisdom and knowledge.

Oh and by the way the person I’m helping, their past the 30 days to request debt validation.

@Birdman First, let me clarify something that I think you are misunderstanding. The rights you have under the FDCPA for debt validation does not have a 30-day clock. If you look at section § 809, it states a consumer has 30 days from initial contact with the debt collector to request debt validation. Initial contact. This does not start from the first notice you receive from the collector. It starts after you have contacted the collector (ALWAYS by certified mail). As an example, the letter I posted above....My girlfriend's son evidently forged her name on a Prompt Care form or listed her as an alternate guarantor. She didn't even know it existed on her credit report until she allowed me to start helping her with her credit. It was over 3 years old and Pheonix Financial was still badgering her via mail and reporting it. Once I contacted them (in her stead) and requested initial confirmation of the debt they were trying to collect, they sent me some crap typed up on their company letterhead with some numbers and dates adding up to almost $3,000. No original documentation, no signatures, nothing that proved the debt. From that point, our 30 day clock started, and I immediately sent the letter I shared above. So.... Step 1: Once you have received notice from the collector stating their intention to collect a debt, or have noticed it being reported as a Derog, you contact the collector and ask them to explain what the debt is, and with who the supposed original contract was entered into. Step 2: Wait for the collector's response. Once they have responded and given clear intention of the debt they are asking for and it is clear that mutual communication has started between you and the collector, NOW you have 30 days to request Debt Validation. Step 3: Send your debt validation letter (again by Certified Mail). When they are unable to do so, send a 2nd validation letter repeating your request, explaining that they have not submitted proper validation. Then finally, send a 3rd and final request for proper validation. So, this process will take some time, as they have 30 days to respond between each request. And this is where the beauty starts. HIPPA laws were created to protect the consumer and your rights to privacy. This also creates a series of Catch22's that puts collectors behind the proverbial 8-ball. First, let me also make it clear....this only applies to medical debts. This does not apply to loans and credit card debts because they do not have to dance around HIPPA laws. In addition, you should never ever ever ever communicate with these collection agencies by phone. Always by Certified Mail, so you have tracking and proof of communication. Along with that.....you can never (and I can't stress this enough) admit on any level that the debt is yours and you agree that you owe anything. You can not enter into an agreement with the collection agency to make any partial payment toward that debt, or else you have indemnified yourself to that debt, and debt validation is no longer an option. So here are the Catch22's that will enable you to have the debts removed.... First: Paragraph 1 of the Debt Validation letter: "I am requesting proof that I am indeed the party you ask to pay the debt, including documentation which shall include: the name of the patient, an original bill, a detailed statement of procedures, full accounting for the amount allegedly owed, the dates of the alleged services, and a copy of documentation that shows that there is some contractual obligation with my signature that is binding me to pay this alleged debt." Doctors, hospitals, and healthcare organizations are restricted by HIPPA laws from distributing or selling any of your personal medical information for any reason whatsoever. Therefore, when they pass off medical debts to collection agencies, (and usually the debt is sold to the highest bidder, or in some rare cases, the doctor/hospital has some contract with a particular debt collector) they can not under any circumstance provide them with any "original documentation" which details any procedures you may (or may not have) received. This also means they will not have anything with your signature along with said procedures. If the collection agency is able to provide ANY of this, then the doctor/hospital that provided it is already in the deepest s**t they can possibly be. They can then be sued and held for malpractice for violating your rights to privacy provided to you under the HIPPA laws. This is taken very seriously and will be pursued to the highest level. Therefore, the collector will never be able to effectively "validate" any debt. Second: Right to Subrogation This also directly ties together with the "original documentation" that can not be provided. The only way a collection agency has ANY right to subrogation to collect on a debt, is for that agency to be listed by name on the financial form that someone signs as a guarantor. Since this is never done, (again, like I mentioned before, because outstanding debts are usually sold to the highest bidder) that means the collection agency can also never provide proof of any such subrogation. They are not legally on the original contract and have no right to collect any debt. Last point of interest: Statute of Limitations As was the case for my girlfriend in this case with Pheonix Financial....the debt validation letter was only intended to have the Derog removed from her credit reports. Here in SC, the statute of limitations to legally pursue a debt is 3 years. Since that limit had already been surpassed, I was very quick to remind them of this in the last paragraph. This effectively meant, regardless of whatever crap they tried to do in any attempt to validate anything was irrelevant at this point, so they might as well not even try. So check your own state's Statute of Limitations if you have an old debt remaining on your CR's. In which case, you could just skip steps 1 & 2, and send a debt validation letter like the one above, making it clear the SoL has already expired and it would be in their best interest to stop reporting. You are required to request debt validation 3 times. This proves you have taken ample steps to have proper validation submitted. (Which of course, the collection agency will never be able to do) At this point, if they do not respond again, which in most cases they won't....If you do not see the Derog removed within the next 2 months of reporting, that's when you contact the credit bureaus. Send a certified letter with copies of your communication with the collection agency, debt validation requests, etc. and ask for the Derog to be removed by all 3 bureaus. If they do not comply, that's when you start a case with the CFPB. This means you have proof of requested debt validation, no response within 30 days, and no removal of that debt from your reports. (And in our case, expired statute of limitations) Added note: In most cases, (which is what happened with my girlfriend) they will never respond to your first request and immediately submit to removing the Derog without the 2nd or 3rd debt validation letters ever being sent. Because the collection agencies understand that if someone sends a letter this detailed, with full understanding of their rights under the FDCPA, FCRA, (and obviously without directly saying it, HIPPA Laws) or they must have a family attorney who has drafted this for them.....they already know, this is not the chicken to chase. There are many many other easier chickens to catch....they will abandon any further attempts with you. If the collection is sent back to the doctor/hospital, they will not spend the time to pursue it, and likely won't try to find another agency. The collection agency likely bought your $3,000 debt from the hospital for $200 (pennies on the dollar) and is always wanting you to make an "arrangement" to pay partial total, because they will usually come out way ahead. And once you make an arrangement, you indemnify yourself if they ever decided to take you to court, and it also immediately resets the statute of limitations. The hospital was just happy that the collection agency bought the debt, so they can take it off their books. But by doing so, the collection agency also entered themselves into a debt contract (which is not legal) that they do not own. (Hereby incurring a debt to their own detriment) In laymans terms, they put themselves in harms way, so you can not be held accountable. So, be prepared if necessary, to send many Certified letters. If it gets to the point that you have sent 3 Debt Validation letters, copies of all 3 letters to each bureau, and finally copies of all 6 letters to the CFPB....you're going to spend a little money, but.... the Derogs will be removed.

Just to give you an additional example, here is another one I submitted for my girlfriend, the response from the collection agency to the 1st DV letter, and my 2nd DV letter to them.... Receivable MGMT Group 2901 University AV #29 Columbus, GA 31907 FORMAL REQUEST FOR DEBT VALIDATION Name: XXXXXXXXXXXX Original Creditor: XXXXXXXXXXX Item 1 - Amount due: $368.00 Item 2 - Amount due: $66.00 To Whom It May Concern I am requesting that Receivable MGMT Group provide Debt Validation for the reported debts listed above to the original creditor XXXXXXXXXXX in my name. Under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA) I have the right to request validation of the debt you are reporting I owe to you. I am requesting proof that I am indeed the party you ask to pay the alleged debts, including documentation which shall include: the name of the patient, an original bill, a detailed statement of procedures, full accounting for the amount allegedly owed, the dates of the alleged services, and a copy of documentation that shows that there is some contractual obligation with my signature that is binding me to pay these alleged debts. Hereby understand that these alleged debts are disputed. As it is common business practice for creditors to write off alleged debts and to, thereupon, receive either an insurance settlement or a tax credit compensation, in such cases, the pursuit of any such debt thus paid off is illegal unless the entity pursuing same debt has right of subrogation of the alleged debt. Please submit proof that Receivable MGMT Group has been given the right to subrogation through the original contract to collect on the alleged debts from the original creditor in accordance with American Jurisprudence, 73 Am Jur 2d. Sections 90-93. Otherwise, it shall constitute a “failure of consideration” and thus, no enforceable agreement as Receivable MGMT Group has knowingly and willingly incurred a liability to its own detriment. (Scienti et volenti non fit injuria) Debt Validation with all requested documentation should be received no later than 30 days from receipt of this request. Receivable MGMT Group shall cease any credit bureau reporting until the debt has been validated. If Receivable MGMT Group can not provide adequate validation within the 30-day time frame, all debts should be considered invalid and immediately removed from all three major credit reports and furthermore cease any additional reporting. These rights are provided to me by the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Please understand that withholding any information provided by the original creditor in this request for validation is in direct violation of my rights under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA). I request all subsequent correspondence to be sent via U.S. Mail to the address listed below. Please do not contact me by phone. Best regards, This was their written response to my request for Validation.....and I've obviously blurred out some sensitive information..... If you notice, the procedures and descriptions were omitted by the collection agency because they did not have that information....this was a draft created by their office, not original documentation. Also, the "patient" and "responsible party" were (again) in the name of her son.....her name was nowhere on this. If you also notice, they once again tried to bait her into making a payment arrangement.... So the following is my 2nd request for Validation.....needless to say, there was no further communication after this, and the Derogs were removed from her reports on the next reporting cycle...... Receivable MGMT Group 2901 University AV #29 Columbus, GA 31907 FORMAL REQUEST FOR DEBT VALIDATION (SECOND REQUEST) Name: XXXXXXXXXXXXX Original Creditor: XXXXXXXXXX Item 1 - Amount due: $368.00 (Acct. # 467347) Item 2 - Amount due: $66.00 (Acct. # 467347) Be advised this is my Second Written Attempt requesting that Receivable MGMT Group provide Debt Validation for the reported debts listed above to the original creditor XXXXXXXXXXX in my name. Under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA) I have the right to request validation of the debt you are reporting I owe to you. I am returning a copy of the “invoice” you sent to me following my initial request for validation. This material fails to validate any indemnification on my behalf for any debt owed to either the original creditor nor to Receivable MGMT Group. This material clearly states: Patient: Responsible party: Acct #: 467347 Her Son's Name here Her Son's Name here 123 Any St 123 Any St Anywhere USA Anywhere USA In accordance with the Fair Credit Reporting Act, Receivable MGMT Group is obligated by law to provide accurate and valid information to credit reporting agencies. The material you have provided does NOT contain my name, my signature, a contractual agreement, or any other substantiated validity to your claims. What documentation was provided to the credit reporting agencies in my name in regards to these purported debts? Contrary to the comments received in your prior correspondence, I have absolute right to request any and all documentation which should prove to validate that there is any contractual agreement between myself, XXXXXXXXXXX, and Receivable MGMT Group in regards to any alleged and reported debt; or proof that Receivable MGMT Group has been given the right to subrogation through the original contract, (again, with my name and signature) from the original creditor in accordance with American Jurisprudence, 73 Am Jur 2d, Sections 90-93. (one cannot subrogate into a contract that they were not originally on, did not have any interest to protect, whether it is by purchase, assignment, transfer, or trade and then claim successor in rights and interests.) Pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act: § 808. Unfair practices A debt collector may not use unfair or unconscionable means to collect or attempt to collect any debt. Without limiting the general application of the foregoing, the following conduct is a violation of this section: (1) The collection of any amount (including any interest, fee, charge, or expense incidental to the principal obligation) unless such amount is expressly authorized by the agreement creating the debt or permitted by law. As no such agreement exists between myself and Receivable MGMT Group, and no such debt exists between myself and Receivable MGMT Group, the pursuit of any such purported debt from me is unlawful. Without any contract and/or subrogated right thereof, it constitutes a “lack of privity” as well as “failure of consideration” and thus, no enforceable agreement. My requests for validation and proof of indemnification to Receivable MGMT Group are, therefore, entirely reasonable, lawful, and in no way excessive. Receivable MGMT Group has NOT provided any original bona fide documentation of the alleged debts; any documentation with my name and/or signature indemnifying myself to any such debt; nor any written contract between myself and Receivable MGMT Group. Hereby understand that the alleged debts are disputed. Once again, I ask that Receivable MGMT Group provide adequate validation of the debt you are reporting I owe to you. Debt Validation with all requested documentation should be received no later than 30 days from receipt of this request. Receivable MGMT Group shall cease any credit bureau reporting until the debt has been validated. If Receivable MGMT Group can not provide adequate validation within the 30-day time frame, all debts should be considered invalid and immediately removed from all three major credit reports and furthermore cease any additional reporting. These rights are provided to me by the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Please understand that withholding any information provided by the original creditor in this request for validation is in direct violation of my rights under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA). I request all subsequent correspondence to be sent via U.S. Mail to the address listed below. Please do not contact me by phone. Best regards,

Taurus22 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:53 am @Birdman First, let me clarify something that I think you are misunderstanding. The rights you have under the FDCPA for debt validation does not have a 30-day clock. If you look at section § 809, it states a consumer has 30 days from initial contact with the debt collector to request debt validation. Initial contact. This does not start from the first notice you receive from the collector. It starts after you have contacted the collector (ALWAYS by certified mail). As an example, the letter I posted above....My girlfriend's son evidently forged her name on a Prompt Care form or listed her as an alternate guarantor. She didn't even know it existed on her credit report until she allowed me to start helping her with her credit. It was over 3 years old and Pheonix Financial was still badgering her via mail and reporting it. Once I contacted them (in her stead) and requested initial confirmation of the debt they were trying to collect, they sent me some crap typed up on their company letterhead with some numbers and dates adding up to almost $3,000. No original documentation, no signatures, nothing that proved the debt. From that point, our 30 day clock started, and I immediately sent the letter I shared above. So.... Step 1: Once you have received notice from the collector stating their intention to collect a debt, or have noticed it being reported as a Derog, you contact the collector and ask them to explain what the debt is, and with who the supposed original contract was entered into. Step 2: Wait for the collector's response. Once they have responded and given clear intention of the debt they are asking for and it is clear that mutual communication has started between you and the collector, NOW you have 30 days to request Debt Validation. Step 3: Send your debt validation letter (again by Certified Mail). When they are unable to do so, send a 2nd validation letter repeating your request, explaining that they have not submitted proper validation. Then finally, send a 3rd and final request for proper validation. So, this process will take some time, as they have 30 days to respond between each request. And this is where the beauty starts. HIPPA laws were created to protect the consumer and your rights to privacy. This also creates a series of Catch22's that puts collectors behind the proverbial 8-ball. First, let me also make it clear....this only applies to medical debts. This does not apply to loans and credit card debts because they do not have to dance around HIPPA laws. In addition, you should never ever ever ever communicate with these collection agencies by phone. Always by Certified Mail, so you have tracking and proof of communication. Along with that.....you can never (and I can't stress this enough) admit on any level that the debt is yours and you agree that you owe anything. You can not enter into an agreement with the collection agency to make any partial payment toward that debt, or else you have indemnified yourself to that debt, and debt validation is no longer an option. So here are the Catch22's that will enable you to have the debts removed.... First: Paragraph 1 of the Debt Validation letter: "I am requesting proof that I am indeed the party you ask to pay the debt, including documentation which shall include: the name of the patient, an original bill, a detailed statement of procedures, full accounting for the amount allegedly owed, the dates of the alleged services, and a copy of documentation that shows that there is some contractual obligation with my signature that is binding me to pay this alleged debt." Doctors, hospitals, and healthcare organizations are restricted by HIPPA laws from distributing or selling any of your personal medical information for any reason whatsoever. Therefore, when they pass off medical debts to collection agencies, (and usually the debt is sold to the highest bidder, or in some rare cases, the doctor/hospital has some contract with a particular debt collector) they can not under any circumstance provide them with any "original documentation" which details any procedures you may (or may not have) received. This also means they will not have anything with your signature along with said procedures. If the collection agency is able to provide ANY of this, then the doctor/hospital that provided it is already in the deepest s**t they can possibly be. They can then be sued and held for malpractice for violating your rights to privacy provided to you under the HIPPA laws. This is taken very seriously and will be pursued to the highest level. Therefore, the collector will never be able to effectively "validate" any debt. Second: Right to Subrogation This also directly ties together with the "original documentation" that can not be provided. The only way a collection agency has ANY right to subrogation to collect on a debt, is for that agency to be listed by name on the financial form that someone signs as a guarantor. Since this is never done, (again, like I mentioned before, because outstanding debts are usually sold to the highest bidder) that means the collection agency can also never provide proof of any such subrogation. They are not legally on the original contract and have no right to collect any debt. Last point of interest: Statute of Limitations As was the case for my girlfriend in this case with Pheonix Financial....the debt validation letter was only intended to have the Derog removed from her credit reports. Here in SC, the statute of limitations to legally pursue a debt is 3 years. Since that limit had already been surpassed, I was very quick to remind them of this in the last paragraph. This effectively meant, regardless of whatever crap they tried to do in any attempt to validate anything was irrelevant at this point, so they might as well not even try. So check your own state's Statute of Limitations if you have an old debt remaining on your CR's. In which case, you could just skip steps 1 & 2, and send a debt validation letter like the one above, making it clear the SoL has already expired and it would be in their best interest to stop reporting. You are required to request debt validation 3 times. This proves you have taken ample steps to have proper validation submitted. (Which of course, the collection agency will never be able to do) At this point, if they do not respond again, which in most cases they won't....If you do not see the Derog removed within the next 2 months of reporting, that's when you contact the credit bureaus. Send a certified letter with copies of your communication with the collection agency, debt validation requests, etc. and ask for the Derog to be removed by all 3 bureaus. If they do not comply, that's when you start a case with the CFPB. This means you have proof of requested debt validation, no response within 30 days, and no removal of that debt from your reports. (And in our case, expired statute of limitations) Added note: In most cases, (which is what happened with my girlfriend) they will never respond to your first request and immediately submit to removing the Derog without the 2nd or 3rd debt validation letters ever being sent. Because the collection agencies understand that if someone sends a letter this detailed, with full understanding of their rights under the FDCPA, FCRA, (and obviously without directly saying it, HIPPA Laws) or they must have a family attorney who has drafted this for them.....they already know, this is not the chicken to chase. There are many many other easier chickens to catch....they will abandon any further attempts with you. If the collection is sent back to the doctor/hospital, they will not spend the time to pursue it, and likely won't try to find another agency. The collection agency likely bought your $3,000 debt from the hospital for $200 (pennies on the dollar) and is always wanting you to make an "arrangement" to pay partial total, because they will usually come out way ahead. And once you make an arrangement, you indemnify yourself if they ever decided to take you to court, and it also immediately resets the statute of limitations. The hospital was just happy that the collection agency bought the debt, so they can take it off their books. But by doing so, the collection agency also entered themselves into a debt contract (which is not legal) that they do not own. (Hereby incurring a debt to their own detriment) In laymans terms, they put themselves in harms way, so you can not be held accountable. So, be prepared if necessary, to send many Certified letters. If it gets to the point that you have sent 3 Debt Validation letters, copies of all 3 letters to each bureau, and finally copies of all 6 letters to the CFPB....you're going to spend a little money, but.... the Derogs will be removed.

@Taurus22 unfortunately section 809 of the FDCPA requires DV be initiated within 30 days of ‘initial communication’ from the debt collector, not initial contact. So yes your debt validation rights have to be exercised within 30 days from the initial communication. This does not mean that a debt collector will not still verify a debt after that time period or outside of that time period. However a debt collector has no obligation and there’s no restrictions legally upon a debt collector if you did not request DV within 30 days of the initial communication. As for the statute of limitations, that’s a whole different matter that deals with the right to sue you in court. That’s totally separate from the federal exclusionary timeframe that delineates how long a derogatory may be reported in a credit report. So for instance, let’s say the SOL has ran. You tell the debt collector it’s in his best interest to stop reporting it on your credit report. Tell me why that debt collector would stop reporting it? He has the right to report it for the full 7 years. True enough, the statue a limitation has ran and he cannot legally sue you for the amount, but he is still legally allowed to report the derogatory for the full 7 years, so why would he not? why would it be in his best interest to stop reporting it? As a matter fact, that’s the only leverage he has to have any hope of getting you to pay it, so it looks like it would be in his worst interest to stop reporting it. Now as for the HIPAA violations, I’ll have to get into the details of that with you when I have more time, I would like to learn more about that and I’m very familiar with it. I will say this there’s many reasons a debt collector will stop a suit or stop reporting. It’s not always because of the reason we think it is. Also I haven’t had time to read your second post yet so I can’t respond to it yet.

Taurus22 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:01 am Just to give you an additional example, here is another one I submitted for my girlfriend, the response from the collection agency to the 1st DV letter, and my 2nd DV letter to them.... Receivable MGMT Group 2901 University AV #29 Columbus, GA 31907 FORMAL REQUEST FOR DEBT VALIDATION Name: XXXXXXXXXXXX Original Creditor: XXXXXXXXXXX Item 1 - Amount due: $368.00 Item 2 - Amount due: $66.00 To Whom It May Concern I am requesting that Receivable MGMT Group provide Debt Validation for the reported debts listed above to the original creditor XXXXXXXXXXX in my name. Under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA) I have the right to request validation of the debt you are reporting I owe to you. I am requesting proof that I am indeed the party you ask to pay the alleged debts, including documentation which shall include: the name of the patient, an original bill, a detailed statement of procedures, full accounting for the amount allegedly owed, the dates of the alleged services, and a copy of documentation that shows that there is some contractual obligation with my signature that is binding me to pay these alleged debts. Hereby understand that these alleged debts are disputed. As it is common business practice for creditors to write off alleged debts and to, thereupon, receive either an insurance settlement or a tax credit compensation, in such cases, the pursuit of any such debt thus paid off is illegal unless the entity pursuing same debt has right of subrogation of the alleged debt. Please submit proof that Receivable MGMT Group has been given the right to subrogation through the original contract to collect on the alleged debts from the original creditor in accordance with American Jurisprudence, 73 Am Jur 2d. Sections 90-93. Otherwise, it shall constitute a “failure of consideration” and thus, no enforceable agreement as Receivable MGMT Group has knowingly and willingly incurred a liability to its own detriment. (Scienti et volenti non fit injuria) Debt Validation with all requested documentation should be received no later than 30 days from receipt of this request. Receivable MGMT Group shall cease any credit bureau reporting until the debt has been validated. If Receivable MGMT Group can not provide adequate validation within the 30-day time frame, all debts should be considered invalid and immediately removed from all three major credit reports and furthermore cease any additional reporting. These rights are provided to me by the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Please understand that withholding any information provided by the original creditor in this request for validation is in direct violation of my rights under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA). I request all subsequent correspondence to be sent via U.S. Mail to the address listed below. Please do not contact me by phone. Best regards, This was their written response to my request for Validation.....and I've obviously blurred out some sensitive information..... Response 1.PNG Response 2.PNG If you notice, the procedures and descriptions were omitted by the collection agency because they did not have that information....this was a draft created by their office, not original documentation. Also, the "patient" and "responsible party" were (again) in the name of her son.....her name was nowhere on this. If you also notice, they once again tried to bait her into making a payment arrangement.... So the following is my 2nd request for Validation.....needless to say, there was no further communication after this, and the Derogs were removed from her reports on the next reporting cycle...... Receivable MGMT Group 2901 University AV #29 Columbus, GA 31907 FORMAL REQUEST FOR DEBT VALIDATION (SECOND REQUEST) Name: XXXXXXXXXXXXX Original Creditor: XXXXXXXXXX Item 1 - Amount due: $368.00 (Acct. # 467347) Item 2 - Amount due: $66.00 (Acct. # 467347) Be advised this is my Second Written Attempt requesting that Receivable MGMT Group provide Debt Validation for the reported debts listed above to the original creditor XXXXXXXXXXX in my name. Under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA) I have the right to request validation of the debt you are reporting I owe to you. I am returning a copy of the “invoice” you sent to me following my initial request for validation. This material fails to validate any indemnification on my behalf for any debt owed to either the original creditor nor to Receivable MGMT Group. This material clearly states: Patient: Responsible party: Acct #: 467347 Her Son's Name here Her Son's Name here 123 Any St 123 Any St Anywhere USA Anywhere USA In accordance with the Fair Credit Reporting Act, Receivable MGMT Group is obligated by law to provide accurate and valid information to credit reporting agencies. The material you have provided does NOT contain my name, my signature, a contractual agreement, or any other substantiated validity to your claims. What documentation was provided to the credit reporting agencies in my name in regards to these purported debts? Contrary to the comments received in your prior correspondence, I have absolute right to request any and all documentation which should prove to validate that there is any contractual agreement between myself, XXXXXXXXXXX, and Receivable MGMT Group in regards to any alleged and reported debt; or proof that Receivable MGMT Group has been given the right to subrogation through the original contract, (again, with my name and signature) from the original creditor in accordance with American Jurisprudence, 73 Am Jur 2d, Sections 90-93. (one cannot subrogate into a contract that they were not originally on, did not have any interest to protect, whether it is by purchase, assignment, transfer, or trade and then claim successor in rights and interests.) Pursuant to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act: § 808. Unfair practices A debt collector may not use unfair or unconscionable means to collect or attempt to collect any debt. Without limiting the general application of the foregoing, the following conduct is a violation of this section: (1) The collection of any amount (including any interest, fee, charge, or expense incidental to the principal obligation) unless such amount is expressly authorized by the agreement creating the debt or permitted by law. As no such agreement exists between myself and Receivable MGMT Group, and no such debt exists between myself and Receivable MGMT Group, the pursuit of any such purported debt from me is unlawful. Without any contract and/or subrogated right thereof, it constitutes a “lack of privity” as well as “failure of consideration” and thus, no enforceable agreement. My requests for validation and proof of indemnification to Receivable MGMT Group are, therefore, entirely reasonable, lawful, and in no way excessive. Receivable MGMT Group has NOT provided any original bona fide documentation of the alleged debts; any documentation with my name and/or signature indemnifying myself to any such debt; nor any written contract between myself and Receivable MGMT Group. Hereby understand that the alleged debts are disputed. Once again, I ask that Receivable MGMT Group provide adequate validation of the debt you are reporting I owe to you. Debt Validation with all requested documentation should be received no later than 30 days from receipt of this request. Receivable MGMT Group shall cease any credit bureau reporting until the debt has been validated. If Receivable MGMT Group can not provide adequate validation within the 30-day time frame, all debts should be considered invalid and immediately removed from all three major credit reports and furthermore cease any additional reporting. These rights are provided to me by the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Please understand that withholding any information provided by the original creditor in this request for validation is in direct violation of my rights under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA). I request all subsequent correspondence to be sent via U.S. Mail to the address listed below. Please do not contact me by phone. Best regards,

@Taurus22 it really pains me to say this, but you were incorrect and the debt collectors response was correct. First off they had no duty to respond whatsoever since it was past the 30 days from the initial communication. Second off whenever you do a DV they have to stop communication with you, they do not have to stop reporting to the credit reporting agencies as you allege. No initial contact is when they first contact you not when you first contact them. Yes violation of HIPAA can be big shit, but selling a debt does not necessarily constitute a violation. And if you do sell a debt, buyer is subrogated to the position of the original creditor, and no they did not have to be listed in the original contract, if they did, there would be no need for a doctrine of subrogation, because you would already be owed by being listed directly in the contract, so that would obviate the need for the subrogation doctrine to begin with! And like I said the statue a limitations deals with how long they have to sue you, that has nothing to do with the federal exclusionary timeframe for reporting derogatories on a credit report. The two are not even related in the least. I don’t doubt that you got them to stop reporting, but it’s not because of the reasons that you believe. You’re fundamentally misunderstanding the law and its application. I have professional and formal training in the area and I’m on your side.

Now, if you have an understanding of a method to remove medical derogatories once one has missed the 30 day timeframe to request DV, then please advise me, because I’m trying to learn more about that now.

I’m very familiar with HIPAA, having caused changes relying on the law many times. I’ve read a great deal of the raw law, implementing regulations, and caselaw interpreting both. So I actually know quite a bit about it. However that is not my field, and I am by no means an expert in it. If one can point me to the relevant provisions of the code or regulation, and give me the legal angle, I can takeoff with it and even write a Primer on it.

But I promise you: after 30 days from the initial communication without a request for DV, you don’t have a right to DV and they don’t have any obligation to respond to DV or refrain from putting it in your credit report. That doesn’t mean they won’t respond that just means they don’t have to.

@Taurus22 : Those were some very impressive letters, posts, and results! I'm sure a lot of people feel lost and don't know where to start. Using your letter as a template could really help a lot of people!

There is no doubt that debt collectors go for the easy catches. They go for the low hanging fruit. So just the fact that you fight back makes you less likely to be one of the ones that are going to pay, where they can earn a commission. So if they see you fighting back, for some that’s going to help and you’re not gonna be a priority because it just makes them feel like you’re not gonna pay and you’re gonna be a waste of time, so fighting back is good. Think about it: if you were working for a debt collectors office, you want to get the ones that are going to pay so you can get a commission. If you were to get a letter like this from someone, you definitely might go to the next one, because you feel like you’re going to get nowhere with this one because they’re gonna fight you, so yes moves like this can definitely be beneficial. Just be aware they don’t have a duty to respond after 30 days whereas they do before that. There is a plethora of caselaw interpreting what ‘initial communication’ means in various jurisdictions. Basically it boils down to they give you a Dunning Notice which has to be done within five days from initial communication (and it’s usually done with initial communication) and that starts your 30 day window to request DV, legally. But if you catch them before the 30 days are up, these could work nicely. Hell it’s possible they can work afterwards, they just don’t have a duty to respond afterwards. EDIT: I also wanted to make a note of a couple things. A guarantor is a person who agrees to pay something if the patient does not. So if the collection agency were listed as a guarantor, then they would be responsible for paying the debt. It does not make them legally able to collect a debt. Again a debt collector does not have to be listed in the original contract to have a right to subrogation. Also violation of HIPAA is not malpractice. It is a tort no doubt, but it’s not malpractice. Edited.

Communication means to any person, not from the consumer to the debt collector. s.803(2) Within 5 days CA has to send you a Dunning Notice if it wasn’t sent with the initial communication. s.809(a) and this shows it has to be an initial communication with the consumer You have 30 days from the initial communication to request DV. s.809(b): Edited.

@Taurus22 I was doing a search and happened across this thread again, and reread it. I believe the reason they may have removed it is because it was in her sons name and they did not provide you proof that she was the responsible party. Even though she was alleged to be guarantor, did they ever provide any documentation with her signature showing that? At any time a tradeline is subject to a factual dispute, if not successive, and I believe that’s the reason they removed it, not because of the validation/verification request, because you were outside of the 30 day window for it to be legally required. They can respond they’re just not legally required to respond to DV after the 30 day window. Another point that I remembered that I wanted to make. You are correct that the original contract has to allow them to take advantage of debt collection, but I don’t believe the particular agency has to be named. And I’ve got a lot of information on HIPAA that I have to go back and review, like I said I’m pretty familiar with it. But, they do have ways to bill it and place it in collections legally, but if they don’t do it the right way it’s definitely subject to attack. As soon as I get the feeling a little better I’m gonna go over what I’ve collected regarding HIPAA and I would like to create a Primer or post going over it. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge about it and you could be a tremendous help. If we combine our knowledge, I think we could make an excellent resource. I see that you cited American jurisprudence and have done quite a bit of research, do you have any legal training? Did you read over the provisions above and do you understand or agree now that the debt verification is required to be sent within 30 days from a debt collector‘s initial communication with the consumer (Dunning Notice)? Because your writing is excellent, and I think you could be even more of a powerhouse, with a little guidance. And there’s nothing wrong with trying a DV after this 30 day time frame I might add, you just have to be aware they don’t have a duty legally to respond and provide those documents Per that provision after 30 days without a request.