I gained 9 points on TU8 this week, but the only changes on my report were the following: Balance on one of my three open loans fell by $288 Two old, closed loans dropped off I'll go into more detail to support this theory, but I think the cause of the point gain was that Util on one of my loans -- but not my highest -- fell below 80%. I don't think it is conventional wisdom that individual loan Util other than the highest one matters for scoring. But I don't see a better explanation here. For context, this is a pretty clean DP. I did my monthly 3B pull on 2/1. My TU8 that day was 825. According to an alert I got on 2/3, my score went up to 834 on 2/2. I also got two alerts from MF that day about total loan balance declining and some accounts being removed, but we all know that not every change produces an alert, so I didn't assume those were the only changes. I pulled a TU report from ACR on 2/4. It confirmed that nothing else had changed. Here's the before->after of various things related to loan balances and utilization: Total Balance on Loans: $115,985->$115,697 Aggregate Loan Utilization: 85.4%->85.2% Balance of the loan that changed: $8,349->$8,061 Utilization on the loan that changed: 81%->78% Utilization on other loan (larger): 91% (no change) Utilization on other loan (smaller): 47% (no change) The only thing there that looks plausibly thresholdy to me is Util on the loan that changed. I guess there could be a Total Balance on Loans threshold ($ not %) that's a non-round number in the $115k range. Of course, the removal of two old loans shifted my aging metrics a little. Here's the before->after on all of those that could have been affected: AAoA: 9y4m->9y1m AoOA: 27y5m (no change) AAoIA: 10y4m->10y1m AoOIA: 16y7m (no change) There's nothing there that could cause any score gain, let alone 9 points. Now let's turn to reason statements. First: Loan balances->New account Second: New account->Loan balances Third: Seeking credit (no change) Fourth: Short revolving history (no change) I didn't have any new accounts show up, so this is just a case of Loan balances diminishing in importance and dropping from first position to second. There is one other explanation I'm considering. My youngest account (a card) reached 3 months of age on 2/1. I think FICO aging calculations sometimes update a day early or a day late. So perhaps the points I saw on 2/3, which actually appeared on 2/2, were a delayed result of AoYA going from 2m to 3m. But if that was a scoring threshold, it would surely be well known. And this theory isn't supported by the change in my reason statements. So, what do you think? Could it be that TU8 has a significant scoring threshold based on having one or two loans with Util above 80%? Do you see another explanation that I'm missing?
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9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

1 of 31
3 years ago
Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:33 am
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Justaguy
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I gained 9 points on TU8 this week, but the only changes on my report were the following:
  • Balance on one of my three open loans fell by $288
  • Two old, closed loans dropped off
I'll go into more detail to support this theory, but I think the cause of the point gain was that Util on one of my loans -- but not my highest -- fell below 80%. I don't think it is conventional wisdom that individual loan Util other than the highest one matters for scoring. But I don't see a better explanation here. For context, this is a pretty clean DP. I did my monthly 3B pull on 2/1. My TU8 that day was 825. According to an alert I got on 2/3, my score went up to 834 on 2/2. I also got two alerts from MF that day about total loan balance declining and some accounts being removed, but we all know that not every change produces an alert, so I didn't assume those were the only changes. I pulled a TU report from ACR on 2/4. It confirmed that nothing else had changed. Here's the before->after of various things related to loan balances and utilization: Total Balance on Loans: $115,985->$115,697 Aggregate Loan Utilization: 85.4%->85.2% Balance of the loan that changed: $8,349->$8,061 Utilization on the loan that changed: 81%->78% Utilization on other loan (larger): 91% (no change) Utilization on other loan (smaller): 47% (no change) The only thing there that looks plausibly thresholdy to me is Util on the loan that changed. I guess there could be a Total Balance on Loans threshold ($ not %) that's a non-round number in the $115k range. Of course, the removal of two old loans shifted my aging metrics a little. Here's the before->after on all of those that could have been affected: AAoA: 9y4m->9y1m AoOA: 27y5m (no change) AAoIA: 10y4m->10y1m AoOIA: 16y7m (no change) There's nothing there that could cause any score gain, let alone 9 points. Now let's turn to reason statements. First: Loan balances->New account Second: New account->Loan balances Third: Seeking credit (no change) Fourth: Short revolving history (no change) I didn't have any new accounts show up, so this is just a case of Loan balances diminishing in importance and dropping from first position to second. There is one other explanation I'm considering. My youngest account (a card) reached 3 months of age on 2/1. I think FICO aging calculations sometimes update a day early or a day late. So perhaps the points I saw on 2/3, which actually appeared on 2/2, were a delayed result of AoYA going from 2m to 3m. But if that was a scoring threshold, it would surely be well known. And this theory isn't supported by the change in my reason statements. So, what do you think? Could it be that TU8 has a significant scoring threshold based on having one or two loans with Util above 80%? Do you see another explanation that I'm missing?
Justaguy
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

2 of 31
3 years ago
Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:50 am
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BrutalBodyShots
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What was your before/after loan:revolver ratio?
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

3 of 31
3 years ago
Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:29 am
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Justaguy
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Before: 12 cards, 16 loans.
After: 12 cards, 14 loans.

Looks like a nothingburger to me. Do you agree?
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

4 of 31
3 years ago
Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:53 pm
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BrutalBodyShots
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I do agree. Honing in on a 1:1 ratio. I believe any possible threshold is somewhere around 1:3 or 1:4, neither of which you are near before/after the change.

I would say that 80% threshold point is the most probable factor to point to at this stage of the game.
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

5 of 31
3 years ago
Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:30 am
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Birdman
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Please re-calculate you’re beforehand Aggregate loan Utilization and how many decimal points did you go out? Because there have been reports of an 85% aggregate loan threshold and if that was 84.5 beforehand, that would make sense all the way around since that code is known to be triggered by aggregate loan utilization.

I’ve got a sneaky suspicion that’s what it was maybe if you go out on the decimal points remember it’s standard rounding. Did you do the calculation or are you using a CMS calculation?
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

6 of 31
3 years ago
Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:54 pm
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Justaguy
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Good thought. Turns out it doesn’t get us all the way to an explanation, but my search for the answer turned up additional info that might be relevant.

To answer your specific question…

Before: $115,985/$135,869 = 85.3653%.

After: $115,697/$135,869 = 85.1533%

Both of those round to 85%, so there’s no change there.

That’s using all three of my open loans. I had never noticed this before today, but when I get MF updates regarding changes to loan balances on my TU profile, they don’t actually include all three loans. Instead they say “The total balance on all your Personal Finance account(s) has decreased” and their numbers only include two of my three loans. So apparently that third loan is classified as something other than a Personal Finance account in TU’s eyes.

I don’t know what to do with this info. Does my non-PF loan not get included in my loan balance and loan util metrics? That doesn’t make sense. Does TU have different Total $ and % calculations internally for various categories of loans? If so, here are mine:

PF loans Before: $108,997/$120,869 = 90.1777%
PF loans After: $108,709/$120,869 = 89.9395%

Non-PF loan(s) Before and After: $6,988/$15,000 = 46.5867%

I still don’t see any potential thresholds there.
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

7 of 31
3 years ago
Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:28 pm
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BrutalBodyShots
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On your TU report what is that 3rd account coded as being? Interesting development!
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

8 of 31
3 years ago
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:12 am
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Justaguy
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Its Loan Type is showing as Unsecured. It's not clear to me why unsecured loans wouldn't be classified by TU as Personal Finance accounts, when student loans and auto leases (my other two) are. Maybe this is like the whole mysterious CFA thing, where there's another code not shown to the consumer. For that matter, this might be a CFA. I get dinged for that on EQ sometimes but I don't know for sure which account is causing it.
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

9 of 31
3 years ago
Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:27 am
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BrutalBodyShots
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I would think a CFA would land higher up on your negative reason statement list given your scores are already really solid.
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

10 of 31
3 years ago
Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:35 am
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Justaguy
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Agreed. I don’t know if TU8 even penalizes for CFA. Just sorta seems like something about that particular loan is funky. Not a big deal, just makes the proprietary algorithm harder to reverse engineer.

Back on topic, my new hypothesis is that both highest and lowest individual (PF?) loan Util have score effects. I think I’ve seen evidence that lowest matters before. Not sure how clean or clear that DP was. I’ll see if I can find it and report back.
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

11 of 31
3 years ago
Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:09 am
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BrutalBodyShots
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So you're thinking highest and lowest in addition to aggregate?
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

12 of 31
3 years ago
Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:18 pm
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Justaguy
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Exactly.

I also happen to think that’s a pretty elegant way to describe a dataset. Max, min and weighted average. It’s tricky to test, but FICO’s loan metrics have proven very elusive.
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

13 of 31
3 years ago
Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:36 pm
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BrutalBodyShots
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I think the best form of testing it would be to open up a trio of low-balance SSLs on a a loan-free profile at the same time and play with those balances for 6 months or so. Easier said that done obviously as it would take the right profile and someone willing to do it, but I think it would answer a ton of questions.
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

14 of 31
3 years ago
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:12 pm
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Justaguy
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Good call. Think @Cassie has any friends who are willing to do this? It’s for science!
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

15 of 31
3 years ago
Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:12 pm
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BrutalBodyShots
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Level27 Last INQMonday, May 23, 2022 Gardening For2 years, 3 months, 24 days, 13 hours, and 30 minutes Next Level in6 days, 10 hours, and 30 minutes on September 23rd INQ 1yr onTuesday, May 23, 2023 INQ 1yr reached1 year, 3 months, 24 days, 13 hours, and 30 minutes ago INQ 2yr onThursday, May 23, 2024 INQ 2yr reached3 months, 24 days, 13 hours, and 30 minutes ago Goal24 months Goal DateThursday, May 23, 2024 Goal Achieved3 months, 24 days, 13 hours, and 30 minutes ago
Justaguy wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:12 pm Good call. Think @Cassie has any friends who are willing to do this? It’s for science!
She may. I know she's got someone that just hit 6 months with a single revolver. To my knowledge they have no open loans. Really we can target anyone (likely starting out) that's interested in acquiring their first/only SSL. Then we've just got to twist their arm to go with a few rather than just one... ;)
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Re: 9 pt Gain on TU8 with Trivial Changes

16 of 31
3 years ago
Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:51 pm
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Justaguy
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@Birdman, this is an example of what makes me think caps might not be applied (or solely applied) at the level of the five published categories. Per a discussion you and I had at the other site, I have been unable to generate any point gains on any F8 from lowering my balances on cards. You postulated that I might be at the cap for allowable points for Amount of Debt. But here I have apparently gained 9 points by improving my loan Util. The only possible category for that is Amount of Debt. So I must not have been at its cap after all. Maybe there’s one cap for, say, ROE debt and another for installment debt. But I don’t think that’s the whole story either, because I think I can gain and lose points for AWB while my ROE balance points are stagnant, so maybe there’s a third cap for Amount of Debt of All Types.
Justaguy
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